Hey all meeting went very well and we will get meeting minutes as well as slides to post.

Sent from my Nexus One

A brief overview of my personal experience at the meeting.

Firstly, the guest speaker, Mr Engelbrecht. In stark contrast to the perception that Nature Conservation officials are narrow minded slaves of the law, Mr Englbrecht offered a fresh approach to all the issues at hand. The willingness to enter into discussion with representatives from the Tarantula hobby was reassuring. Mr Engelbrecht has a clear view on the concerns that exist, both in NatCon and in the hobby, openly accepting responsibility to assist in finding amicable solutions to our plight. It is clear that he is passionate about his profession, with an undeniable vision of future co operation between hobbyists and authorities.

Secondly, the permitting system has been in place for some time. Anybody may apply, and always could, BUT, permits to keep indigenous animals (specifically Baboon spiders) can not be issued willy nilly. It is responsible process where careful consideration has to be given to every application.

Thirdly, from what I understood, Nature Conservation has no intention of killing the hobby. The main aim is to protect local fauna and flora from invasive organisms and would expect the hobbyist to respect this at all times.

In my view, this was the most positive start to the process of turning the Tarantula hobby away from obscurity. What will be required from us? Not much, except communication, regular discussion, maturity, responsibility, morality and ethics.

Thanks to those who made the journey, I trust this was the first step.

Firstly why are u up so early on a Sunday Scarab? secondly thanks for catching us up on what happened, I see there's a lot of positive that came from the meeting, really wish I was there, But what im most happy about is that i can still keep these little guys for the next few years

First of all, a big thanks should go to Ian, who without an open mind could easily have shot down the idea of a meeting between the tarantula community and nat con.

The meeting was a great success, and I feel that this could really be a step in the right direction for the keeping of local spiders.

Ian and Leon now have to take their ideas back to the director of nature conservation and pitch our ideas to him.

Without getting hopes up too high, one of the ideas that they are going to take back to the director is the thought of giving certain people breeding permits for local baboon spiders.
These people will then be able to breed a few different species to supply captive bred local baboon spiders to people in Gauteng (And possibly people outside Gauteng if their nature conservation departments allow it).
This is still just an idea, but Ian and Leon are going to try their best to get this through.

One of the most important things that came out of the meeting is the fact of little or no man power to regulate the hobby from Nat cons side. Because most baboon spiders are are not threatened, they are not high on the list of importance to Gauteng nature conservation. To put it bluntly they have bigger problems to deal with like cycads, etc.

!!!!!Therefore we as the tarantula community (On and off this forum) will be responsible to regulate ourselves.!!!!!

This means not buying wild caught baboon spiders and not buying baboon spiders from people without permits (This includes everything from Ceratogyrus species through to the infamous OBT (P.murinus)).
If we cant control this then nat con will have no choice but to shut down the whole permitting process. So its time that people start acting with integrity and some moral values when dealing with our local baboon spiders.

Nature conservations role is to protect our natural fauna and flora, and we as responsible hobbyists should be all out for the same objective.

Tarantulas:
The law states that it is illegal to import exotic tarantulas into the country. It is not illegal to keep, sell, trade or export them out of the country. The reason they are illegal to import is because of the acricultural pest control regulations, which are meant to stop or try and prevent exotic species from taking over natural habitats in SA and threatening our flora and fauna.

Local baboon spiders:
Read the site rules to see the list of protected genera.

As for all of those of you who have illegal baboon spiders:
For the moment, hold on to your spiders or donate them to the zoo. Once we get some feedback from Nat Con then they will decide what needs to be done and how we/they will go about legalising the illegal spiders that people have.
Just remember that Nature conservation is a government organisation with lots on their plates and a small workforce, so people will need to be patient. We will get answers as soon as possible.

If there are any other questions, ask away and I will see if I can answer it or forward the questions on to Ian via email.

Man! I wish I was able to attend, sounds like I missed a really good meeting.

I think it would be a great idea if Natcon were able to give permits to "approved" breeders, from which people can buy captive bred local baboon spiders, BUT my question is:

If people start buying these T's from approved breeders there is a chance that many of the purchased baboons will mature and turn into healthy Males and Females and some are even able to be kept communally. And you know, after a movie, few drinks and a night outside the burrow... comes the pitter patter of hundreds of tiny feet... The fact is, we love this hobby, and many of us love to breed our T's and I am sure many people would love to breed some of our local beauties, even if it happens by mistake.

What happens in this situation? Should we report successful breedings to someone? Must we give them to Natcon? Will someone who is able to breed their specimens be able to apply for a breeders permit? I don't see a problem with as many people as possible permitted to breed local species because it hopefully stops people harvesting T's from the wild and knocks the wind out of the black market. (Except if people start putting them back into the wild which could mess up micro-eco systems in various areas).

I am sure there are many more questions I or we could ask, but I think this is a pretty good question...

HS

I think this is a pretty good question...

Let's see if we can conjure up a sensible response.

"Permit" by definition is an official document giving someone authorization to do something. In our case, this would imply an official document giving someone authorization to be involved with indigenous Baboon spiders. (I am using "be involved with" because there are various ways and multiple permits involved).

1 Keepers permit - would allow a person to be in possession of/keep specified species.
2 Transportation permit - would allow the relocation of species from A to Z.
3 Breeders permit - would enable the permit holder to attempt reproduction of a specific species.
4 Collection permit - would allow harvesting of specific species from the wild.
5 Export permit - would allow a person in possession of all of the above to export out of SA.

Should NatCon decide to streamline the permitting system with the aim of reducing the illegal trade, it would probably imply the following:

A selected number of ethical, trust worthy keepers would (after close scrutiny and evaluation) be issued with all of the above. These keepers will be closely monitored and be accountable for their actions. These keepers will assist NatCon in the "policing" of the trade, ensuring above board activities at all times. These actions not only rooted in ethical behavior, but also in the fact that a permit can be revoked (a guilty keeper prosecuted) should these keepers act inappropriately.

Now we have a supply from breeders, what then?

Any person obtaining spiders from such breeders will have to apply for a Keepers permit. Once in place, the breeder will be allowed to sell/give to the keeper as specified on such new permit. Should the keeper "accidentally" produce offspring, such babies will probably have to be given/sold back to the breeder and recorded on his/her permit. The, umm shall we say " previously disadvantaged market" would be killed and the need to illegally harvest from the wild be diminished. It is possible, but yet to be approved by NatCon that a legal export route might be created with the same aim, to reduce the illegal harvesting from the wild. Should an export permit be approved, such exports will be meticulously monitored by NatCon and in all likelihood, the kind folks from SARS.

In reality, the above process can take on many shapes and HAS to be approved and consented to by NatCon. It must be made VERY clear that we are ONLY dealing with Gauteng Nature Conservation at the moment and NONE of the above possibilities have yet been discussed with ANY other province.

Secondly, this proposed process will be still born should it be abused by unscrupulous individuals.

Thirdly, the release of "excess" spiders into the wild will NEVER be considered responsible.

In conclusion, we as keepers can make this work, or screw it up. It will ALWAYS be within our ability to succeed and failure NEVER be blamed on NatCon. Their willingness to approach this issue is to be applauded, if this open minded approach delivers results, only US as hobbyists will be to blame if it fails.