Ja but you and Cerat will be doing the biting if I start posting my indigenous that I claim as crossbred and legal.

Not sure I understand the statement, but yes, as you all know me by now, I usually just "bite" for the hell of it and make no positive contributions here.

If you can point me to ANY post where I have claimed to be involved with local spiders in this? The fact that Cerat has a permit should not cause you any discomfort or waken jealousy. He has locals, I have M balfouri males. How is the permit system an issue, or how does it have ANYTHING to do with this discussion? Secondly, I have a mature P fasciata and six mature P metallica males. How does that relate to the permit system? The fact that I have P metallica seems to be an issue if I look at this post:

It's a bloody disgrace to us who dream about having permits and P. mettalicas.

I refuse to apologize for having them, or be deviated from the actual topic. I don't have a permit to keep local spiders and I don't. I have a few P matallica and won't apologize for it.

lion wrote: Ja but you and Cerat will be doing the biting if I start posting my indigenous that I claim as crossbred and legal.

Wow, that took a bit of reading.

What do you mean by your statement lion?

If anyone wants to cross breed their spiders they should know what they are getting themselves into.
You cannot sell the spiders, so unless you want to try it for a scientific reason (Or some other, non-money making reason) don't try it.
You will be responsible for having to kill the remaining slings that are not needed too.

There have often been spiders that emerge that are identified as hybrids, so it has been happening for a while already. (Know marula had a striata x regalis - That was bred by a large breeder/dealer in sa years ago). Have seen a few albopilosum x vagans, and there are a few more examples.

And I know for a fact that some "big breeders" have been hybridizing for years already and not too many slings have gotten into the market because they were responsible.

Basically, it comes down to the person who decides to hybridize and his morals. Some people are going to do it any way, so rather warn the general public about not buying hybrids than ignore the issue.

I don't want to be rude or anything so please don't take this the wrong way.

Countless times i have read posts where people go out to gun down other people. The fact of the matter is that this discussion is started very innocent and now it's about having a "God complex".

The moral ethics of humanity cant be controlled and unfortunately it will stay that way. Its the same with religion. You don't talk about it because everybody has a different view and wars have been fought over it.

I just think if you read this thread and you don't have the intelligence to make the right decision then you cant point a finger to someone else. I personally think it has become way to easy to put the blame on some other person to protect yourself. If you don't have the "man parts" to do the right thing then rather not.

I think this is one of the reasons why the forum doesn't have any discussions anymore, it always turns out the same way. I bet you that when sitting around a fire that it will not get this out of control.

Well that's my seeing on all this.

I agree with being curious and wanting to see what happens but that's not playing GOD at all. If it wasn't for curiosity then most things in life would not exist..

Ladies and Gentlefarts...

Excuse the pun, as it appears that this thread evoked a hell of a lot of constipation amongst the members...

As you know, I am not an advocate of hybrids in any form, manner or nature.

That in itself, does however not curb my curious nature...

What is evident to me from this thread, and us old hands have encountered first hand in our innings in this hobby is this - few tarantula keepers/breeders have backbone.

I reserve my silence on naming and shaming some of the spineless we've encountered over the years.

I've known Scarab, and I've known Ceratogyrus for many a year now. I can attest to the fact that they are 1. Responsible keepers, and 2. Men of impeccable character.

Arguments and heated debate is normally, the result of the inability to effectively communicate.

I am curious as to the whole hybrid issue, i.e. would the offspring be able to reproduce.

I know that they wouldn't unleash a batch of spiders into the hobby incorrectly labelled. Not that they would in any manner release any hybrids to anyone. Let's say for some magical reason it does happen...

I can't anymore than they can, or you the reader for that matter, guarantee that along the line someone won't go and #@%%^$ up the label in order to make a quick buck...

What is the ramifications of that? The ramifications is this, that someone who prides himself in breeding pure tarantulas' whole breeding operation will be screwed to bits as result.

Take a step back, take a seat, loosen your belt a little, have a cup of coffee/tea/other relaxing fluid, and think about the subject matter. Think some more, then let go of the emotions. Think again. Then once you've done this...

Come back, and contribute in a meaningfull fashion to the conversation.

TH

Ok, here goes just a bit of education on terminology:

Example: Brachypelma albopilosum

Brachypelma: Genus
albopilosum: species.

A subspecies would be identifiable by another name AFTER the species name.

Traditional definition of a valid species (Wikipedia): "A group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. While in many cases this definition is adequate, more precise or differing measures are often used, such as similarity of DNA, morphology or ecological niche."

For tarantulas apparently the test for fertile offspring to separate two different species isn't applicable as has been proven by many strains of hybridized T's. I haven't read up extensively on this but suspect this would need a lot more in-depth research.

Inbreeding: crossing closely related individuals

Cross-breeding: used for the crossing of two individuals of the same species (Pug x Basset), as well as of individuals of two separate species(B. albopilosum x B. vagans), thus a term best avoided in this discussion

Hybrid: the result of crossing two different species, or even genera (the latter shouldn't work at all to my knowledge)

There are many ways how new species can develop, one of them hybridization.

I personally don't like the idea of hybridization in tarantulas as the genetic material of our tarantulas is precious. It would spoil the fun in the hobby for me if I couldn't be sure that any T' I'm buying wasn't the species I think it is.