+1 Taki too

I would just like to know from everyone, are we going to be happy with putting the regulations in place - and be satisfied that some of us are abiding by what is implemented, but that there are still the unscrupulous offenders out there? In advance I will say having something is better than nothing at all, so I still think it's a very positive thing, but are we going to try and curb/educate/warn/prosecute offenders? Or just be happy that things are better?

IcarusZulu wrote: I was talking about re-introduction into urban areas where as a result of 130 years of buildings and homes around a park the T population would have diminished.

I think the problem with this, is that other creatures etc were also removed from these areas during this time, and ALL of them have suffered losses. Adding new amounts of T's only, and not any other creatures that may be food or feed off Tarantula's, would still leave an imbalance in place.

It's a sensitive issue no matter who I speak to about it, some I have spoken too even feel if you remove even 1 creature, you should not return it.

HS

Taki wrote: The points of concern as follows:

1) It's an assumption that collecting and trading is still happening, I personally do not know that! We were assured that most species are doing perfectly fine....

5) If the proper set of criteria in my point #4 were met I don't think it should be restricted unless a point were reached were supply clearly exceeded demand so therefore a limited time period or annual permit would be the most obvious choice. In other words, say 10 people had been issued specialised breeding permits in 2012, if the demand dropped, those permits would simply not be re-issued in 2013.

I agree that the people in their respective provinces should be given first choice for their province and only if there were not enough applicants, they could then issue to people in other provinces.
If the people for eg. from Gauteng were given permits to breed a species from WC, if they met the clearly very important criteria mentioned in previous points, the mentioned risks would by definition also be low.

Just my responses to a few questions above.

1)Spiders are most definately still being taken out of sa. Have a look around some overseas sites and see just how many species are being sold as wild caught. Other spiders like I.mira are being bred overseas. Where did those adult spiders come from???

5) If just 5 people were given breeding permits for a certain species, then supply would far out weigh demand in the first year, guaranteed. Out of the 5 people, who's permits would you not renew the following year then? How would you know the supply has outweighed the demand? What are the people going to do with the spiders when they cant be sold anymore?

I disagree with the person who wrote this letter. Who is going to breed the spiders from Limpopo? North West? The fact is that most collectors are in Gauteng,added to the fact that for the moment, the only province that is working on breeding permits (As far as I know) is Gauteng. If we have to wait for other provinces to catch up (Assuming Gauteng is given the go ahead) we coul be waiting years for certain species.

Basically, my feeling is that the whole breeding permit is a bad idea. We can't afford for a few moral-less people to ruin the future of baboon spiders in sa.

IcarusZulu wrote: (1) Hek.... If I had a permit to collect keep and breed I'd be breeding the T's from my area (JHB). I wouldn't sell them I'd re-introduce them back into the parks and reserves here in JHB.

(2) My view on issuing permits is.... Issue permits for keeping freely. Issue permits for trading and breeding only to recognized breeders.(Hobbyists who breed on their own must give their slings to a recognized breeder with a breeding permit to sell on their behalf.) Don't issue permits to collect from the wild for the hobby.

(3) Issue a bank of licensed numbers that can identify a particular T (just like windows dose with their license) This code must accompany the sling from breeder to pet shop to customer and kept with that T for the rest of it's life.


Numbers should be on special hologram paper that can't be reproduced at home.

I have edited your quote slightly just to put numbers in front of every point for my reply.

1) Bad idea. As animal said, only bad things can come from releasing captive bred stock into the wild. Most baboon spiders are not threatened, so there is no need to boost wild numbers.

2)Bad idea again. What is the point of having breedeing permits if anyone can breed and then just pass the spiders on to a breeder? What happens when the 5 permitted breeders dont want the non permitted breeders stock? Either the slings will get sold illegally or released.

3) Good idea, but very hard to police. What is stopping someone from just collecting a spider in the wild and selling it as a captive bred spider? It is a lot easier to stick a number on a window than a spider. If a breeder were to breed 5 species of baboon spiders, with 300 babies from each one, he will never know which spider ends up where and the system will fail with the moral-less people in the country.

IcarusZulu wrote: Animal I hear what you are saying.... I was talking about re-introduction into urban areas where as a result of 130 years of buildings and homes around a park the T population would have diminished.

On the other hand as you noted T's don't wonder too far so assuming they have not been harvested from the park (unkept parks) there should be the same T ratio to land as there would have been prior to urbanization.

Part of the permit system should be compulsory field trips. Heck why don't we have T field trips? Anyone out there willing to organize a field trip? I'm in if I can make it.

Where would you reintroduce them though? If areas were urbanised 50 years ago and the spiders were removed, Im pretty sure those areas will still be urbanised?

As for the field trips. Baboon spider field trips would be pretty boring. Most live in burrows, so the most you would see is a hole with possibly a glimpse of some legs in the bottom. The best option to go out and learn about spiders with like minded ideas would be to join the spider club of sa. They hold regular field outings in the spring, summer and autumn. You get to learn mostly about true spiders (Which are often more interesting than baboon spiders anyway) and lots of other subjects from rocks to trees to animals from people that have great knowledge.
Do yourself a favour and join the club. I have been a member for 18 years and owe all of my knowledge of local spiders and scorpions to people like Astri Leroy and Jonathon Leeming who are always willing to teach new comers about the wonderful world of local spiders.