Hey guys

Here’s the newest draft, please forgive me if there are format errors, I had to convert from .pdf cos some of the forums Im posting on won’t accept the format.

Please note that feeder insects are now banned OUTRIGHT, and the sections previously conflicting with the Criminal Procedures Act have been changed (they now need a warrant ect.)

Remember, you can still RSVP, although its the last day!

Wont upload, please follow the Dropbox link

www.dropbox.com/sh/fbftek88dp12iz9/RUdA3fQcRc

I'm not going to comment on the feeders or other animals, because it's not my place. I will give a few comments relating to baboon spiders and tarantulas though:

1. It's quite good news for people who've been unsure about keeping baboon spiders. Back when I kept spiders, it was like a blanket ban on all genera/species, and anyone who kept baboon spiders quietly, did so speculating that it was okay to keep Brachionopus and Harpactirella spp. because they weren't included in the original list of protected species.
So at least now its pretty clear.
Regarding members of the Harpactirinae subfamily in South Africa, all members of Augacephalus, Brachionopus, and Harpactirella are NOT protected...so it seems you CAN:
(a) keep,
(b) possess,
(c) sell,
(d) collect,
(e) purchase,
(f) donate,
(g) receive as a donation
(h) carry,
(i) convey,
(j) transport,
(k) import into, or
(l) export from the Province...
any species of Augacephalus, Brachionopus and Harpactirella, WITHOUT a permit! Which is very cool news for anyone wanting to start illegally collecting and exporting any of those species of baboon spiders :eyepoke:

Just a note to anyone wanting to keep Augacephalus, Brachionopus or Harpactirella spp. I see that Trichognathella schoenlandi is included in the new draft as a protected species, but only the male is described from South Africa, so there's a grey area to exploit :whistle:

2.From the exotics side, as far as I understand from the new draft:
No person may without a permit –
(a) keep;
(b) possess;
(c) sell;
(d) collect;
(e) purchase;
(f) donate or receive as a donation;
(g) breed;
(h) release;
(i) carry; or
(j) transport
(k) import into; or
(l) convey in or through, the Province...
any species that does NOT appear on this list (section 67(1) of the National Environmental Management: Biodiversity Act, 2004):
Acanthoscurria geniculata
Avicularia avicularia
Brachypelma albopilosum
Brachypelma smithi
Brachypelma vegans (Which we'll assume is actually vagans, but I'm not sure if it'll hold up in court :whistle: )
Grammostola rosea
Haplopelma lividum
Lasiodora parahybana (Good luck to the nature conservator who would like to identify between the Lasiodora spp.)
Poecilotheria regalis
Psalmopoeus cambridgei
Theraphosa blondi

So the exotic tarantula hobby will now have a choice between 11 species that they'll be allowed to keep, breed, import and export without a permit. I'm not too sure how they'll regulate these species being imported and exported though?? Nature conservation officials at all ports of entry who can positively identify these 11 species?? Anyway...not my concern.

This is disturbing, and of great concern to anyone in the exotic tarantula keeping hobby. I strongly suggest that everyone put their differences aside, and unite in trying to solve this silly (no other word for it really) bit of legislation, or it's going to have devastating impacts on the future of the hobby.

I still stand by this quote taken from SAReptiles from Tie Black (Which was me back in the day):

Contact the SANBI and find out who is responsible for compiling the list
Contact the person who compiled the list.
Ask to see their research and proof of invasive threat.
Ascertain what the determining criteria are.
Compile a list of contradicting evidence.
Attend the meeting where the draft is put before the board and present the contradicting evidence.
And if we are a democracy, the board should decide on the appropriate action.
I guess legal assistance would be beneficial at one or more of these stages.

Billions of Dollars are generated out of the illegal pet trade annually(second only to the illegal drug trade supposedly), so I'm sure some of that money would be well spent, fighting to do things the right way.

Good luck.Tie Black
SA Reptiles Member

Take note:
The draft can still be amended, and the list of alien species that may be kept etc. can be updated at any time by the MEC, so there is light at the end of the tunnel.

This entire process disturbs me no end, and unfortunately, has driven many minds underground, who could have made an incredible impact on the hobby, and the amount of knowledge available...and it's going to make it even worse now! Let's not keep these intelligent youngsters/old folk hidden underground, but bring them out into the open where they can do GREAT work!

Lately some of the senior members like Taki, Dimitri, Hendrik etc. have been concentrating on local baboon spiders, and have taken their focus off the hobby. Guys, if you're reading this, how has your involvement with nature conservation helped the hobby lately? Is nature conservation still going to allow captive breeding of local (now protected) species, to take the pressure off wild populations, like they originally promised? It seems not! All they've done now is put pressure on the protected local species through illegal activity, and put pressure onto the unprotected species, by allowing collecting and exporting of wild collected, local specimens! ON TOP OF THIS...Now, the exotic hobby can only keep 11 species! Maybe hand the reigns over to a new crowd of administrators, who are interested in the hobby, then you guys can concentrate on the local baboon spiders, because the hobby needs spokespeople who are not in bed with nature conservation...but who are willing to fight stupid policy!

Anyway, that's the way I think it should be handled, but ego's have gotten in the way in the past, and I'm sure they will get in the way again...Put ego's aside and get back to fighting for what's important to you people...the HOBBY!

Good luck

Wow Pat, you of all people surprise and offend me with your ending paragraph about myself, Dimitri and Hendrik abandoning the 'hobby' and 'exotics' for local baboonspiders!
I'm not sure what you meant by 'handing over the reigns'exactly, I wasn't aware we were 'ruling' anything??

With regard to abandoning the hobby, we have not done anything of the sort and have collectively one of the most impressive tarantula collections in the country!
Hendrik is one of the biggest breeders in the SA and has provided countless people with their exotic tarantulas!
As so many prophets of doom have been screaming, the hobby has gone through a bit of a dip lately (I think largely due to financial pressure) so we haven't been overly active on the forums perhaps but that's more due to natural progression in my opinion (most things that can be said or asked on a forum have already been said and asked to death).

That certainly doesn't mean (and I can only speak for myself here) that I've lost any interest at all in the exotics! I have been very actively been researching and talking to people about various 'grey area' species revisions etc.
Obviously that's not easy to do with tarantulas being so widespread and difficult to access, so while we have the ability, desire and means to do anything worthwhile for our locals, we will do so.
Considering what you've been up to regarding local species over the past few years, your comments are seriously baffling??

If you speak to Arno and others, they will tell you that this proposed legislation was submitted in almost identical form years ago when yet again it was challenged and put to bed for a few years.

What we should be doing is challenging it on the grounds of it's inherent shortcomings embodying conservation principles and the priciples of co-operative governance and the 3 tiered model of government, not on what the implications will be for hobbyists or pet keepers as I think they will not take that angle too seriously (although one can approach it from an unconstitutional point of view in that many people's livelyhoods will be affected).
We should probably approach the relevant people in the Gauteng Provincial Legislature and question the thinking (or lack there of), in to how this proposed legislation in it's weakly put together form, is helping nature conservation...

That all said, I guess that arriving in numbers at the MEC open day is a good show of force and commitment but not if people go about it in a silly and emotional way. We have to go there prepared with intelligent questions and objections/challenges in my opinion. The blanket ban approach can only be considered weak, unsubstantiated and unmotivated if you start to really examine what the risks are!

Taki, sorry if you're offended.

Once again, you've taken what you want out of everything I said, and failed to answer any of my questions.
1. How has you involvement with nature conservation helped the hobby? Ian's not at NatCon anymore, so who are you dealing with now?
2. Is nature conservation still going to allow captive breeding permits for locals to ease pressure?
3. Is your involvement with NatCon going to help with the future of the exotic tarantula hobby? and how?

Let me try and cover your points:
I didn't say you've abandoned the hobby. When I look at your forum, I see stagnant topics with "new" threads that are standing weeks and months without having any responses! When you started the forum, you used to be very active, and your admin staff were pro-active. Sure there was some chaos and heated debates, but that's sure better for the hobby than stagnancy! And to try cover that with "everything's been asked to death" is looking for a way out! There are always going to be new people, asking the same questions, looking for the same answers. The job of a forum owner or their admin staff is to answer those same questions, with the same answers, and still try and keep the experienced guys' interest sparked.
What I did say, was that you guys have taken your focus off the exotic hobby lately, which is why you should maybe look at getting staff who are more pro-active, giving you guys more time for you baboon spider stuff.

Who cares if "collectively you have one of the most impressive collections in the country"? Are we going back to ego again?
Taki, think about what I said. If this kind of legislation comes into effect, how much good would it do to have the world's best tarantula collection? Seriously? You'd have to give it up, or maybe your contacts at NatCon would help you with a permit, but what about the other newcomers to the hobby? Again, my question only applies if you care about the hobby...

So what if Hendrik is the world's best tarantula breeder? Again, who is he going to sell his stock to if this legislation gets passed? The tarantula fraternity from Limpopo or wherever he's from? You're dreaming.
Anyway, it wasn't a dig at any of you guys, they were questions.

Why does my involvement with locals have anything to do with you? This is about the hobby, and I'm not really involved with the hobby, but the dynamic stays the same with ANY hobby, so I feel I can offer some advice. I'll keep quiet if you don't want it.

Why don't YOU speak to Arno (whoever he is) and ask him to, instead of putting the legislation to bed for a few years, how about doing something pro-active to try and change the legislation. That is the answer. This way some sort of compromise can be reached by everyone...

Your next paragraph looks seriously like Ian's language, so I'd rather not comment on 3 tiered systems etc. as that's for academics, and I'm not a clever oke.

Anyway, I have things to do, but read my post properly, and don't look for attacks, rather look for ideas, and suggest answers.
Take care

Pat I don't want to lose focus on what's more important here but you did 'personally attack' us on various levels in your original post so I felt the need to respond.

1. I will say that we have no 'connections' at natcon (you're contradicting yourself seeing that you know who works where)

2. Do you know something I don't? When did they give captive breeding permits out? I do however know of people that have illegally been providing the rest of the world with 'captive bred' locals. Probably a good thing and similar to what we were striving to achieve LEGALLY only to be thwarted by typically narrowminded and in most cases uneducated bureaucratic red tape. (At least we didn't sit around on our arses and tried!)

3. We don't have any sort of involvement with Natcon and as you can see, they pretty much do anything they wish (however illogical or silly it might be)

You're a fine one to talk about our and our admins activity, why did you disappear from the forum for so many years with all that knowledge that you have to offer? Did I not repeatedly ask you to re-join the forum and actively participate for you only to decline due to certain individuals?
I'm sure you have a clue what the costs involved are nowadays in keeping a forum up and running (and very advanced and updated I might add). We certainly have contributed greatly to the hobby in that respect out of our own pockets wouldn't you say?
The size of the collection and ego comments are so absurd I shouldn't even be responding to them, I was merely pointing out that we had in no way lost interest in the hobby.

I did make suggestions as to what I think the approach should be in tackling this proposed legislation after chatting to MANY well informed people. I'm not a 'clever oke' either, just tried to piece together everything I have discussed with all those people.
I have signed the petition going around and plan to be at the meeting. I do not however have the time to go into this on a full scale due to work commitments, I can only say I am willing to help as much as possible.

Again, this is not an attack, it's a response. Let's by all means have a proper discussion as to a possible solution!