@ Carlo - looks like a few of us has had said long discussions with Scarab, over wine too, and will again in future...

Bitching will not change a thing, we have the opportunity to make a difference, how we make that difference, and for how long said difference will last, is up to us...

TH

Ok so this is my take on the idea of the permits and a response to all those points on that letter from the WC

Firstly I feel the concept is reasonable to captive breed in a controlled manner and the authorities are looking into almost foolproof methods of making sure there's no cross breeding etc. if this all comes to fruition.

The points of concern as follows:

1) It's an assumption that collecting and trading is still happening, I personally do not know that! We were assured that most species are doing perfectly fine....

2) As I understood it, Natcon did say that the Alien Invasive Species regulations would be addressing the exotic's legislation flaws as best possible.

3) Definately agree that the species should be limited by Nature Conservation based on research (which automatically would then exclude undescribed species).

4) 'Apparently there will be an auctioning process where the highest bidder would win the rights to breed'

This 'apparently' was in no way agreed upon and I personally hate the idea, the working group and Nature Conservation would have to come up with a proper set of criteria for being deemed an acceptable recipient of a breeding permit.
I also fully agree that the selling value should be very reasonable and the motivation should in no way be 'coining it'. I would even suggest that a percentage of the sales be re-directed towards nature conservation in some form.

5) If the proper set of criteria in my point #4 were met I don't think it should be restricted unless a point were reached were supply clearly exceeded demand so therefore a limited time period or annual permit would be the most obvious choice. In other words, say 10 people had been issued specialised breeding permits in 2012, if the demand dropped, those permits would simply not be re-issued in 2013.

6) Here I agree that shops should be treated equally to any of the hobbyists, possibly Natcon could just become more proactive in disciplining or educating unscrupulous shop owners (possibly with the funding from the selling revenue ).

7) Again, if controlled properly and the prices are kept to a very reasonable level (where at least time and effort costs are covered), I don't see a problem.

I agree that the people in their respective provinces should be given first choice for their province and only if there were not enough applicants, they could then issue to people in other provinces.
If the people for eg. from Gauteng were given permits to breed a species from WC, if they met the clearly very important criteria mentioned in previous points, the mentioned risks would by definition also be low.

9) If criteria were put in place to allow safe exotic species to be allowed to be imported, illegal importation would be severely hampered and the overall 'stigma' of our beautiful and misunderstood creatures and hobby would be removed and it wouldn't be the preserve of 'wierdo's' lol
The simple facts are that all the tarantula's in the hobby got here illegally!
I would assume that it's almost impossible to prevent them being brought in so I would say remove the 'forbidden fruit' scenario and deal with them effectively and responsibly. After all there's no feasible reason for the majority of exotic species not too be allowed in the hobby!

+1 Taki

Hek.... If I had a permit to collect keep and breed I'd be breeding the T's from my area (JHB). I wouldn't sell them I'd re-introduce them back into the parks and reserves here in JHB.

My view on issuing permits is.... Issue permits for keeping freely. Issue permits for trading and breeding only to recognized breeders.(Hobbyists who breed on their own must give their slings to a recognized breeder with a breeding permit to sell on their behalf.) Don't issue permits to collect from the wild for the hobby.

Issue a bank of licensed numbers that can identify a particular T (just like windows dose with their license) This code must accompany the sling from breeder to pet shop to customer and kept with that T for the rest of it's life.

eg:
Breeder = 12
Provence = GT
1 T species = 5 = Pterinochilus
2 T species = 3 = murinus
Sling Hatch Date = 20111231
Number of slings in batch and number = 3/34

So the new sling owner would get a License permit from the original breeder that would read. T-PERMIT 12-GT-5-3-20111231-3-34 The licensed breeder would furnish NATCON with a copy of all license numbers. This way NATCON could add the information to their database.

Numbers should be on special hologram paper that can't be reproduced at home.

Just a thought - DON'T FLAME ME....

+1 Taki

Place the ENTIRE Icarus post here.

Icarus, I won't flame.

I have a problem with the release back into the wild which I will address later in my post.

The record/registry of offspring is a great idea. And I feel that it should be done for all tarantulas regardless.
This way, you have some form of genetic reference, this would aid in future breeding projects.

Regarding the release...

Not enough studies have been made into the numbers of the spiders in their home range. (Amount per square kilometer, how often the particular spiders mate, and have viable offspring, how the offspring disperse, and make it to mature specimen.)

Therefore, by simply releasing offspring back into the wild, would upset the whole equilibrium of the ecosystem, if not perhaps be an exercise in futility should the offspring not survive. If we are issued breeding/keeping or whatever permit, we need to take responsibility.

We should be open/able to remove spiders from building sites, that would destroy their habitat, that does not mean we should reintroduce. Some of these spiders spend a lifetime in the same burrow. If captive spiders are to be reintroduced into the wild - it would have to be under the request of NatCon, based on extensive studies into the numbers of the area falling too low, and even then getting them to adapt to that life again would be risky to say the least.

In my opinion, we should rescue the spiders whose habitat is to be destroyed, breed in captivity and help diminish the demand, and the illegal foraging of our local fauna.

TH

Animal I hear what you are saying.... I was talking about re-introduction into urban areas where as a result of 130 years of buildings and homes around a park the T population would have diminished.

On the other hand as you noted T's don't wonder too far so assuming they have not been harvested from the park (unkept parks) there should be the same T ratio to land as there would have been prior to urbanization.

Part of the permit system should be compulsory field trips. Heck why don't we have T field trips? Anyone out there willing to organize a field trip? I'm in if I can make it.